BRIAN LAMB, HOST: Glenn Holsten, what is the movie the ”Saint of 9/11?”

GLENN HOLSTEN, DIRECTOR, ”SAINT OF 9/11”: It is the life story of Father Mychal Judge, the man who was fighter to – chaplain to the Fire Department in New York City. He died on 9/11.

But the film takes us sort of from his death through his life. He became very, very well known from a very famous picture that was published around the world after – the day after 9/11 of his body being carried from the wreckage.

And this film is an attempt to sort of tell the back story of this beautiful man’s life.

LAMB: When does it hit the streets? When do – when can people see it?

HOLSTEN: It’s going to have a public screening in New York City at the IFC Theater on September 11th as part of the fifth anniversary remembrance of 9/11. Comcast is offering a video-on-demand service for people in their homes and also Netflix is carrying it, which is fantastic.

LAMB: I know we’re going to frustrate people tonight because we’re only going to show parts of it. You’ve given us permission to show clips of it. The whole documentary lasts how long?

HOLSTEN: It’s a 90-minute film.

LAMB: What kind of a mood – before we show the very opening – did you want to set as people begin to watch this?

HOLSTEN: Well, you know, everybody has lived through 9/11. Everybody brings their whole world of their remembrance of that day and that morning to the whole film actually. So, when you go to a film that’s called ”Saint of 9/11” you know that you’re going to be prepared to see some 9/11 imaging.

But we wanted to start with really creating a physical picture of the man. The picture that’s most famous of him was of – again, of him and his death. So, we asked many, many people who knew him to give physical descriptions. We created a collage to create that sort of sense of body and then spirit.

LAMB: Let’s watch the first couple minutes.

HOLSTEN: Great.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: You’re flying around the city, robes flying and all behind them and always going and yet all of us stopped at the jet.

UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Not seeking anything for himself, but seeking to share God’s love with the person he’s talking to.

UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: He’s good looking, big, great hair. The priests used to kid him about loving the mirror.

UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Powerful hands, like a carpenter or construction worker.

UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: I couldn’t help but notice he had an earring.

UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: There was very little you could say to Mychal that would shock him. He was a monk of the world.

UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: And he had this great wonderful laugh about him. I call it wild. It was a wild laugh.

UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: I was walking on 31st Street and he was crossing the street. And he was in his full fire chaplain regalia, the uniform with the hat, a big hat And he looked fabulous. I mean, he looked fabulous.

UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: His whole ministry was about love.

UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: He was the perfect Franciscan.

UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Who cannot make him out to be a really holy jewel? He was so human.

UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: He’d be vastly amused of the idea of being a saint.

UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Mychal wasn’t the one to judge. He had judged himself enough and then found freedom.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LAMB: Did you know him?

HOLSTEN: No, I didn’t. I didn’t. And I think – you know, in many ways that’s a very good thing for a filmmaker to be so intensely engaged with a subject for over the course of three years and not know him, because what happens is I came with this much expectation. And then as the interviews went on, as I worked with people who did know him, more and more corners of his personality were revealed.

And what that opening does is sort of set up the puzzle – not quite the puzzle, but sort of the package that his life is. And so, the rest of the film is unraveling that.

LAMB: Who think he’s a saint?

HOLSTEN: Well, a lot of people laugh at the title. Malachi (ph), it says in the film, he’d think that was – he would think that was a riot to be called a saint.

A saint – the name actually came out of a production meeting when Brendan Fay, our co-producer, was chatting. And he was saying – he said something pretty much to the effect of, ”Out of the rubble the saint of 9/11 emerges.” And up until that time ”My Mychal” had been the working title in my mind. He spells his name M-Y-C-H-A-L.

But also, in doing all the interviews with people, Mychal presented himself so fully to every person they thought that he was their best friend. And everybody had their version of who Mychal was. And it was only until after his death that there was this overlap revealed. We all shared a love for this man, but there was I loved him for this reason and I loved him for this reason and I had this history with him.

So, it went from ”My Mychal” to ”Saint of 9/11” at that meeting. And who thinks he’s a saint? I think most of the people we chatted with.

LAMB: Now, you’ve got some videotape of him talking.

HOLSTEN: Yes.

LAMB: Where did you find that?

HOLSTEN: That was from an interview. NBC, I think, did an interview when he became chaplain to the Fire Department.

LAMB: This is short, so we watch it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MYCHAL JUDGE, CHAPLAIN, NEW YORK CITY FIRE DEPARTMENT: Life and death, so powerful. And I wonder when my last day of hour is going to be, when my last hour what it’ll be. Will it be doing something for someone, trying to save a life?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LAMB: We’re going to see more in a moment. But how did he get killed? What happened?

HOLSTEN: When the first tower fell part of the building fell and hit him and killed him.

There is a story that he was – took off his helmet and was administering last rites to a fallen firefighter. And that has never been proven. It’s a story that happened. It’s sort of an interesting thing about 9/11. After 9/11 America was obviously hurting, wounded, needing a hero. And Mychal emerged from this picture and also this story about him sort of taking off his helmet to administer last rites for a firefighter.

Tom Von Essen, who was the fire commissioner at the time, says that that’s not a true story. But it’s very interesting to see all through – if you do any Web research and even when people promoting this film that fact is brought up. So, it would be – it probably is not an unlikely scenario that something like that would have happened, but there’s nobody around that says, ”I saw this.”

LAMB: In one of the articles about this, I noticed a reference to you had difficulty with the fire department with some stuff. What was that?

HOLSTEN: Well, the fire department was – you know, the film deals with Mychal’s sexuality. And I think the fire department was afraid that this film would be a sensational portrait of a man and his sexuality. What it is a full biography, as full as we could get in a production – the whole production time that we were working.

And clearly, as hopefully we’ll chat about, his sexuality was a part of his ministry and is a key to understanding certain critical moments in his life. But they – in the end the fire department shared with us a tremendous treasure, which is Mychal’s address on September 10th to the fire department, which has – the words are prophetic. It’s the day before 9/11 and he simply says to everybody that you do what you have to do. You put one foot in front of the other. You go out on that rig. You don’t know what’s going to be facing you, but you do it and God gives you a love for it and he gives you a love for a job well done of something.

It’s tremendous. And they share it with us. So, I’m grateful.

LAMB: Let’s watch a little bit.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JUDGE: God made everything good and he created man and woman to his image and likeness and he made it good. And when Jesus comes along and he tells us after everything has happened, good, bad and indifferent, he says, ”Don’t worry about anything, what we’re going to eat and what we’re going to wear and what we’re going to do. Don’t worry about it. Stay in today and your heavenly father will take care of you and everything will be given to you. Stay in today. Don’t get into tomorrow.”

All about God in our lives. It’s just absolutely fantastic. It’s fantastic how I can sometimes begin a day and go through a day and hopefully say a prayer here and there, but not realize that everything that happens, every single thing that happens, is somehow within the divine plan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LAMB: And so, that film came from …

HOLSTEN: From the fire department. They film a lot of their public events and they have an archive. It’s not a tremendously high quality film, but it is a wonderful documentation of Mychal fully alive, fully engaged in his ministry, clearly passionate about his message.

Later on in the film we revisit that same homily, and that’s when he sends the message to the firefighters to go out. So, I’m extremely grateful to the fire department.

I’m – part of a filmmaker’s job is to make everyone who’s participating as comfortable as possible. It’s a big story. It’s a life that’s – he’s a well known guy. It deals with 9/11. It was a very, very sensitive – extremely sensitive part of their culture. So, I try my best and in the end I’m very happy.

LAMB: What was your role in all this?

HOLSTEN: I was the director. I had seen Brendan Fay, who I mentioned earlier. Our coordinating – our co-producer was a friend of Mychal Judge’s, a good friend, and had after Mychal’s death organized a memorial in New York City for Mychal. And he videotaped it wisely. And I saw a videotape of that memorial service.

When I saw all these people from all walks of life coming together, all over their shared love with this man, and people who would probably not be in a room under any other conditions, and that’s when I got sort of excited about the idea of expanding that – bringing that idea to a bigger audience through a documentary.

LAMB: What were you doing before this?

HOLSTEN: I do documentaries. Yes, I had just done a film called ”Jim in Bold” about two years before that, about being young and gay in America. And it dealt with the double sides of being young and gay, the extremely triumphant and heroic sides and very tragic sad sides. So, I had been – had finished that film and I was doing some small bits and researching other projects and then I stumbled on – well, I was sent the videotape and I thought it would be a really strong story.

LAMB: Where do you live?

HOLSTEN: I live in Philadelphia, right in the middle of the city.

LAMB: How long have you been a director?

HOLSTEN: Well, I guess 20 years. What is it, 2006? Yes, I guess so. I started opening up a intern and a PA in a public television station and then I became a …

LAMB: Where?

HOLSTEN: … associate. WHYY in Philadelphia. And I produced talk shows and small performance pieces. And then I gradually moved on to small documentaries and then I moved on to full length works of documentary works and fiction. I had my hand at fiction there. It was fun.

LAMB: And do you operate your own company?

HOLSTEN: Now I operate my own company at the third floor of my house.

LAMB: What’s the name of the company?

HOLSTEN: It’s called Glennfilms?

LAMB: Can you make it in this world of documentaries?

HOLSTEN: Yes. You know, it’s a juggle. It was a juggle. And I’ve always been juggling. When I was at WHYY I was juggling many different projects. In my life now it’s a juggle between some works that pay the rent and some works that fill the soul. I’m a father to a six-year-old, so it’s great to be home. It’s wonderful to be around and be at school at 1:00 when I have to pick him up or 3:00 now this year, first grade. So, it really works.

LAMB: Where’d you get your son?

HOLSTEN: My son was born in Vietnam. Yes. He’s adopted. And he’s the swellest kid in Philadelphia. I can say that.

LAMB: What’s his name?

HOLSTEN: His name is August.

LAMB: Where did you get the name?

HOLSTEN: It was my grandfather’s name. I never knew my grandfather, but he went by Gus and I always liked it, my dad’s father. And so …

LAMB: How did you adopt a son from Vietnam?

HOLSTEN: It’s just a process of going through an agency.

LAMB: Why did you do it?

HOLSTEN: Why? There is – there’s a lot of international adoption in my partner’s family and my family, and it sort of presented itself to us as a very wonderful choice.

LAMB: Any surprises being a father?

HOLSTEN: No, not al all, it’s all a thrill. I’m a little tired today because we were up a lot in the night, but that’s all right.

LAMB: Back to the documentary, one of the people you see speaking about Father Mychal Judge in the early part is Tom Von Essen, a former fire commissioner. What would that job have been? Was he there as a fire commissioner during 9/11?

HOLSTEN: Yes. Yes, he was the fire commissioner during that …

LAMB: Is he the boss?

HOLSTEN: … time. He was the boss. He was the boss. And he was – Mychal Judge was a beloved family friend. Mychal Judge had done baptisms of grandchildren, had many, many soul – had much soul time together, I can imagine. And Tom was so generous in sharing his time, clearly still mourning the loss of his friend while we were interviewing him. And it was – I was very pleased that he shared that.

LAMB: Where did you interview him?

HOLSTEN: He has an apartment in New York City?

LAMB: What’s he doing now?

HOLSTEN: He works with – I was going to say Mayor Giuliani – Rudy Giuliani – Giuliani and associates.

LAMB: Here’s Tom Von Essen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM VON ESSEN, FORMER COMMISSIONER, NEW YORK FIRE DEPARTMENT: Father Judge and some of the other chaplains would normally come to something like that, where the tragedy is the worst, hoping to be of help if anybody was seriously injured.

We didn’t talk much. I remember saying, ”How you doing?” He said, ”OK.” That kind of thing. And then I was busy. And he looked like he was praying. He looked like he was – to me, it looked like he was mouthing prayers. You could see his lips moving. That’s what I thought.

I saw a concern on his face that I didn’t normally see.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LAMB: Where’d you get that?

HOLSTEN: That’s the Noday (ph) Brothers. They filmed in the World Trade Center.

LAMB: The music.

HOLSTEN: The music is a fabulous idea. Composer name is Michael Aharon. And he commissioned a drummer to improvise. That drummer lived in Brooklyn at the time of the World Trade Center. And the drummer sat in the studio and improvised his emotional reaction to what we were doing. We sort of set up the scenes and then he did it. Provided the base foundation for the soundtrack. It was a brilliant idea, I think, of Michael’s.

LAMB: And where were you on 9/11?

HOLSTEN: I was editing a film about Thomas Eakins for PBS. And I remember I was under the gun, as I always seem to be with editing. And the morning of my son had wanted to see the gym where I work out, because I go there and disappear and he wanted to see where I went. So, I brought him into the gym and everything was stopped at the gym because the first news was breaking.

And then he went over to grandma’s house and then I was walking to the station where I was working at the time and I noticed traffic hit a stop and people were looking. I remember people’s faces – everyone has their memory of this morning. And I remember people’s faces concentrating in their cars in a way that I didn’t recognize. It was a far more intense experience than usually walking through the city.

So, yes, then I got into the office and the first news broke and I started editing. I didn’t know what to do. And then the second tower was hit and then – we’re right on Independence Hall where I was working – Independence Mall at WHYY. And then everyone just said we think we should go home and be with our family. And that’s what we did.

LAMB: And how long after that did you find yourself in the middle of putting this documentary together?

HOLSTEN: Well, you know, it’s interesting. Our executive producer, Malcolm Lazin, wanted to do something on Mychal Judge very quickly. And I actually didn’t have any interest because I didn’t know the story. I hadn’t seen that videotape that I mentioned earlier about his memorial service. I didn’t really know it too well.

And then it was two years later when it all started to move. And I felt like that was a good time. It’s interesting, when the film premiered at Tribeca it was the same time as ”United 93” came out. And everyone was asking – a lot of people, journalists, were asking, ”Why now? Why is this the right time?”

It’s funny because when you think about it, production really started three years before that. That was the right time, when the storyteller started to sort of sift through things and make their plan. It just takes that long to execute it, especially in the independent documentary world.

LAMB: Now, what did you do with the politics of the day in this documentary? I mean, did you tiptoe around politics? Did it play any role at all, or is this just a documentary about a man?

HOLSTEN: Can you – a little bit more specific?

LAMB: Well, is there an edge to it at all? I mean, is there a political message?

HOLSTEN: Well, I mean, it’s a message about love and hope. Overall, it’s a message about love and hope and it’s a message for everybody. It’s a message – it’s a biography that tries to tell a complete picture of Mychal’s life. And I would say of the political nature of it would be including his sexuality in the film. That would be what the fire department was concerned about. That’s the discussion with his brother friars was concerned about. I mean, that’s where it became edgy.

But I think, if anybody who watches the film will see, that it’s just as – it’s just – it’s a portrait that’s painted with even brush strokes throughout all the aspects of his life.

LAMB: How well known was it that he was gay?

HOLSTEN: Good question. I mean, Mychal, like any of – I’m speaking now as a man who I have the process of coming out and telling people little by little where I felt that it would make them comfortable.

Mychal was out to people who were comfortable with that information. It wasn’t well known in the fire department. But after we did screenings, fire department personnel came up to me and said that they knew.

So, what I like about the film is that it takes – it puts sexuality in context as well with his ministry. And also, it becomes this thing no one’s whispering about anymore. And whispering has all this negative connotation instead of whispering is just – it’s just stated and it’s sort of an insight into his sort of very, very critical AIDS ministry. And I think that is, in my mind, a shiny moment in his ministry.

LAMB: Let’s – you have some people talking about his sexuality in the documentary. We’ll watch a little bit of it.

HOLSTEN: Thanks.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIAN CARROLL (ph), FRANSCISCAN FRIAR: One part of Mychal’s personhood is his sexuality. And it was something he wasn’t afraid to talk about because it humanized him. It was out of that need and that want that we all have to connect, to touch, to feel. That was what empowered him, in good part, to be such an effective minister.

UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: He was proud, I think, of the way he looked. I used to kid him a lot when I’d see him with women. I used to say if they only knew. He liked wearing the uniform too. He looked great in our uniform with just a white collar. He fit right in.

I talked to him about being gay a lot. I never had the sense that he was in any way ashamed of being gay.

It was definitely something that he didn’t want people to know about in the fire department. And I think that he felt it would compromise his ability to help so many of them if that became something that he had to deal with every day.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LAMB: That last picture there is that – was that his helmet?

HOLSTEN: No, that was in – I think it’s the fire department across the street from the friary on 31st Street. Mychal lived at the Franciscan Friary and then across the street was the fire department that he was closest to.

LAMB: The first fellow we saw on the screen was?

HOLSTEN: Brian Carroll (ph). He was a former friar and was a close friend of Mychal’s. Mychal would be his mentor, I would say, for much of his life in his – as a friar.

LAMB: In the documentary were all the people who talked – obviously not. Tom Essen is not gay.

HOLSTEN: No.

LAMB: Von Essen, I mean. So, they didn’t – people that talked didn’t have to be gay in order to talk about his sexuality.

HOLSTEN: No. The one qualification I had for an interview is that somebody knew him, was an – like a second person talking about Mychal’s life and observing it. It just had to be somebody who knew him.

LAMB: One of the things that you see in all this is part of this is very open and then you’re suggesting that another part of this is very closed. The other friars didn’t want to talk about this.

HOLSTEN: Yes.

LAMB: The monks in the – and also the fire department.

HOLSTEN: Yes. Yes. His – I had a very polite no thank you from the friars that he served with, which is a shame because I went to film inside that beautiful, beautiful church on 31st Street. But all you can do is invite people and they can say, ”Yes, Mychal meant a great deal to me,” and even when they said no they said, ”Mychal meant a great deal to me.”

But I just – unfortunately, what I heard a lot from the religious community that he served with – there were a lot of people from the religious community in the film who were very happy to chat about his love and his compassion. But they said, ”Let him rest in peace.” And that, to me, was a very sad kind of comment. I mean, of course, he’s resting in peace and his message is being shared with countless others now. And I just feel like that would be – I think Mychal would approve and actually be happy about that.

LAMB: The historian, Richard Norton Smith, compares the moment of the photo, which we’re going to show, to similar to the Iwo Jima flag raising. Is it – what’s your sense of how important that moment is?

HOLSTEN: It certainly is iconic and it certainly was – I mean, I think because his injury was on his back – so, you’re not completely seeing his face – looks as though he’s sleeping and resting. And it’s in the middle of this turmoil. And I think it’s what people – and because of the Internet, it was around the world within hours. In fact, it was on the cover of the – I think it was on the cover of the ”Daily News” before he was identified, the ”New York Daily News”, full page.

So, it became this thing that people grabbed onto as sort of embracing and picturing the sheer intenseness and horror of that day. I’m sure there were a lot remarkable photographs taken that day. Of course there were, but this one seemed to grab at the heart and soul as well as the mind.

LAMB: As the director for this documentary, how did you approach this moment we’re going to show?

HOLSTEN: Well, you know, this photo was a big moment. I knew – we had the photographer, Shannon Stapleton, and he was very articulate about detailed – he took us through getting that photo. And it was kind of interesting how he sort of – his passion for picture taking took him through this maze.

But I knew I wanted to take a break. I wanted it to sort of take us out of 9/11. And it takes us out in sort of a loving and a beautiful way. And the music does a great deal, too, again. The score is very powerful.

LAMB: We’d better stop talking about it and watch it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FERGUS O’KEEFE (ph), PRIEST: I ran and then made it to the base of the tower that was still standing. And there was this real eerie light. It was a weird day. It was – there was this beautiful light coming in. And as I was getting near the tower people were starting to evacuate down the stairs. And I noticed that there was a group, like a fireman and police and FBI and emergency services, carrying this man.

So, I started making some frames. And the one fireman started yelling at me, ”Stop taking photos. Stop taking photos.” I kept shooting.

UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: It’s such a striking photograph, this big man, obviously in anguish. And Mychal limp and serene at the same time. And their arms – it reminded me a lot of the pieta.

CARROLL (ph): This is how Mychal would have prayed to have had the last day of his life transpire, doing what he loved. This was one of the most horrific moments in American history. And he would’ve been nowhere else on the face of the earth but with all those folks.

Mychal wasn’t a hero in 9/11. He was doing his job.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LAMB: Who was talking?

HOLSTEN: That was Brian Carroll (ph) again, his protιgι. Brian Carroll (ph) was a friar at the time – on the morning of 9/11 and was the gentleman who came in, actually saw the plane very low on Manhattan skyline and ran in to tell Mychal that there’s a problem. And Mychal ran out and quickly got on his gear. And that was the last time he saw him.

LAMB: Who was talking right before that?

HOLSTEN: Father Fergus O’Keefe (ph), in Ireland, a colleague of Mychal’s in Ireland that he met when Mychal did his commitment, his peacekeeping efforts in Northern Ireland.

LAMB: And when that is shown in the theater, that particular part of it, is there any reaction?

HOLSTEN: Yes. There’s lot of quiet. It’s really interesting to screen it with live audiences after being in an editing room with it. I mean, there was unexpected laughter, which is really nice. I mean, Mychal’s a funny guy. And his humor sort of pierces through a lot of times. And I didn’t realize it while I was editing it, that there was a funny side. I wish I had been able to fit more humor into the film. I think that’s the one thing that we’re not as – true to his personality with. I think he was very funny man.

But in that moment with the picture, I mean, people bring – and then also we have a moment where the towers are actually falling, stock news footage. And with that we also – we take sound out all together because my feeling was that, as I said earlier, people bring so much from that morning. And you just want to give the space for an audience member viewer to sort of be in it.

LAMB: This footage – stock footage from news?

HOLSTEN: Yes, one of the news stations. We purchased on film.

LAMB: What’s it cost to …

HOLSTEN: It’s expensive.

LAMB: Is it?

HOLSTEN: It’s really expensive. I think for the whole film it was about $60,000.

LAMB: For this …

HOLSTEN: Of archival footage. There’s a lot of archival footage in the film.

LAMB: Why is it so expensive?

HOLSTEN: Well, there’s a value to it. I mean, people are making – especially with the exposure to media, people are making good livings off of footage. And companies are – exist to serve that purpose.

What I loved about working with this footage, though, is all of this has slowed down to an extreme degree. And when you work in news I don’t think you have the opportunity to dissect imagery that way. And that’s one of the beautiful things about documentaries. We can – we slow it down, listening (INAUDIBLE). Let’s slow it down. Let’s slow it down more. Let’s slow it down more. Let’s look at it. Let’s really look at it. I find that really exciting.

LAMB: And do you have as a director the final decision on what this looks like?

HOLSTEN: I guess. I guess I do. I do work very much closely to the director of photography and with the editors, very closely, because I respect their opinions and what they bring to it. But in the end of the day if there’s a – I think they’re looking to please me as well. So, the final say, yes.

LAMB: I want to go back and look at the shot of Father Mychal again and just – now that it’s been explained on how you did it – by the way, did you – how much time did you spend on that particular minute?

HOLSTEN: Of the photograph?

LAMB: Yes. I mean, just yourself in planning and all that.

HOLSTEN: You know what, actually a couple of the scenes came together very quickly. I mean, that we knew. We had those great sound bytes. That’s how we work first. We built the audio track first with the picture in mind that people have and then Brian’s (ph) comment about this is exactly how Mychal would have wanted to have spent the last day of his life.

I would say we spent the morning or afternoon. It came pretty quickly, unlike some other sequences. And actually the sequencing of the whole film was very challenging.

LAMB: Also, you have a famous voice …

HOLSTEN: Yes.

LAMB: … which we haven’t heard yet. And I’m going to run that first and then tell us who it is.

HOLSTEN: Great.

LAMB: Here’s biographical information on Father Judge.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

IAN MCKELLAN, Mychal Judge was born on May 11, 1933. His twin sister Dympna arrived two days later. He was baptized Robert Emmett Judge and grew up on Dean Street in Brooklyn, New York. His father died after a long illness. Mychal was six years old.

He once told a writer, ”I’ve never called anyone dad. I’ve always been very much on my own. Although we had nothing, my mother made us feel like we were upper middle class.”

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LAMB: Who is it?

HOLSTEN: That’s Ian McKellan.

LAMB: Now, why did Ian McKellan do this?

HOLSTEN: Well, I think the executive producer had a previously – knew him. We had sent out an invitation about – we had a wish list of about seven or eight actors. And he was the first to respond and said yes. We were completely excited.

And then when he found out – more about the film and he realized a lot of what he reads in the film are Mychal’s words from interviews, from prayers, from letters that he wrote – and when he found out that he would be reading this Irish American’s words, he tried to tell us that he was the wrong guy for the film. But I disagree.

Actually, while we were doing this I said maybe he’s right. He’s a very smart man. Maybe he’s right. But then when I sat in the recording booth and I heard the words – Mychal’s words are beautiful. He is a wonderful speaker, a wonderful speaker. A very simple language. And that was one of the things that first attracted me after the – seeing the memorial service, is I read some of his prayers, specifically the one that he said to folks after the TWA 800 Flight had crashed off the coast of Long Island. He was a major figure in that – at that time at the hotel. He was there every day and every night.

And his words that he came up with to provide comfort, to me, were stunning. And then when I heard Ian McKellan read those same words I knew we had the right choice because he takes this wonderful poetry and then elevates it up just one notch to make it theatrical poetry.

LAMB: Did you have to pay Ian McKellan?

HOLSTEN: No. No. He did it out of the goodness of Ian McKellan’s wonderful heart.

LAMB: Did he do it in London or …

HOLSTEN: Yes.

LAMB: … did he do it over …

HOLSTEN: Yes.

LAMB: So, he recorded it all over in London and then shipped it over to you?

HOLSTEN: Well, I actually went to London for about 18 hours.

LAMB: What’s he like, by the way?

HOLSTEN: Well, it was a quick, little meeting. He’s awfully nice. He was very interested in the film. He – what we do is we queue up the part where the narration is and then he reads – I had done the scratch narration. So, you can imagine – I said, ”So much beauty,” and then he comes in and he says, ”So much beauty.”

But then after – before and after he wanted to see more of the film. So, that was very promising that he was so engaged with the content and the story.

LAMB: Here is Mychal Judge giving a sermon at – he’s in front of TWA families?

HOLSTEN: Families, yes.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JUDGE: They have given so many around the world courage and strength. They have perseverance in your love. I have been a recipient, a large recipient, of your goodness, your faith and through your love.

My life, like yours, was changed. It will never be the same. But I’m grateful for the change and I thank you for the gift.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LAMB: What did firemen think of him? And if they knew he was gay – those are pretty manly men – menly men or whatever. You know what I’m getting at. They’re probably – I don’t know how many gay firemen are there? Did you run into any?

HOLSTEN: Yes, there’s actually an organization.

LAMB: Is there?

HOLSTEN: A fire (INAUDIBLE) – but, in fact, I don’t think it’s – I don’t think it’s easy to be a gay man in the fire department. I think Mychal was – I think it became of service in the ministry to the men. It became something that he would share. But I don’t think it was anything that was well known.

Again, after we had – we have – we did a series of rough cut screenings with different populations. And one was with the fire department when the film was in like it’s sixth, eighth stage, or seventh, eighth stage. And everyone coming up to me afterwards who were engaged with the fire department who felt comfortable sharing with me said, ”Yes, we knew he was gay.” Well, immediately after his death people were talking about it.

So, again, I feel like it was something that he – I think he was very careful about because he didn’t want to get in the way of what the men needed from him, which was really guidance and counseling. And he seemed to be very good at that.

LAMB: Let me ask this question, because there are people watching right now that are saying as – people on all sides watch these things.

The gay community clearly liked the idea of pushing this documentary out there as a way to deal with the whole gay issue.

HOLSTEN: Well, I think that it’s – I think that I am a person who’s well prepared to tell the story. I have an appreciation for all of Mychal’s life, for all the corners of his life, his European American ancestry, his passion for Brooklyn – my grandpa had an ice cream parlor in Brooklyn – his – my family’s fairly religious and grew up in the Lutheran faith. I’m not a Roman Catholic and I sort of always was attracted by the bells and whistles, as Brendan says, of the Roman Catholic faith.

But I think that I am a very – I’m well prepared to tell the story. I’m not intimated by the subject matter. I’m comfortable with it. And I can bring – and I brought all those skills to making of the film.

In terms of pushing the agenda, I think it’s matter of creating a record of accuracy. There was a film found on Mychal’s life from Britain. And when the idea of his sexuality was brought up it was one reference and it was about how people were – the commenter in the film, who was an interviewee, said they were all horrified about it, not that he was gay, that people would suggest he was gay.

So, I saw that actually. And it was a period when our film was going through some rough financial patches and I wasn’t sure we were going to be able to finish it. And that gave me such a motivation to finish it, to tell the story that is a true story and a story that everyone can connect to. It’s a documentary.

LAMB: How much did this cost?

HOLSTEN: I think it’s in the realm of $350,000.

LAMB: And how did you get the money?

HOLSTEN: The money comes from the executive producer – and the organization that runs it is called Equality Forum. And they do the fundraising for it. And it’s a gay and lesbian civil rights organization based in Philadelphia. And they did the fundraising. Malcolm Lazin is the executive director.

LAMB: And where did they find the money?

HOLSTEN: Foundations and individual grants. It was a rigorous fundraising series of events, where we’d go to individuals or hold screenings of various forms at a rough cut. I think that’s what the dance that most filmmakers go through.

One private film I did with PBS that was fully funded from the start and everything else has been this sort of fundraise as you go kind of.

LAMB: Will this be available around the country in any theaters?

HOLSTEN: Well, on September 11th it is being screened in New York City at the IFC Theater. And there are about a dozen cities around the country where film societies are showing it. And then it’s going to be available through Netflix. So, it’ll be brought into your living room, which I think is pretty exciting because from the start the audience that we wanted to share this message with was living rooms around the country.

LAMB: Will you be able to buy it?

HOLSTEN: Yes, I think you will. Yes.

LAMB: And do you have any idea what it’s going to cost?

HOLSTEN: No, I don’t. That’s a good question.

LAMB: Back to your documentary, here’s a firefighter at seeing Father Judge dead.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Yes. We were stopping at that point and just anybody we passed it was another firefighter. We just asked them, ”Did you hear anything about Ladder 12? Do you know? Did you see where they were? Did you see them? Did anybody from our battalion” – we were just asking for them. And they said, ”No, but the chaplain is in the church.” And then they said, ”He’s dead.” And I immediately knew it was Mychal Judge.

All of a sudden it was just very dark and there was this dust in the air and papers were flying everywhere. There was no color anywhere. It was just trees were covered. The cars were covered. Buildings were covered. Nothing had color to it.

And when we opened the doors to the church it was like you opened to a world of color. What light was coming through was filtering through stained glass windows. And the church just for that moment was so pure looking. You could see Mychal Judge’s body up on the altar. We just knelt down and everybody had tears coming down and said whatever quick prayer we could and again stood up, knowing that we had just to keep going.

We headed our way out of the church and we traced our steps, picking up our tools, and continued on our way.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LAMB: How hard was that whole section to put together?

HOLSTEN: Well, again, we had the storytelling first before we went to the church to film. So, I was very focused on what I knew I wanted to get. So, again, that was one that went together pretty easily. The music came afterwards. We had used – I forgot what we had used for scratch music, but we always place something down to give us a mood and then place the words down and the picture over it.

LAMB: After going through this – you did this for three years?

HOLSTEN: Yes. I would say on and off, very intensely for the last year. But there was like a period of shooting, then stopping, and then – which is healthy, I think, for a film, too, because you reflect.

LAMB: What’s your conclusion as to the impact of 9/11?

HOLSTEN: The impact of 9/11?

LAMB: On all of us.

HOLSTEN: You know, it’s very interesting because, again, as people asking me is it too early to hear stories about 9/11 I found that so interesting because it’s not too – the storytellers are ready to start telling their story. So, it’s bubbling up in all different ways. So, the impact, I think, is yet to be seen.

It’s become a discussion in my family. My father’s seventy-fifth birthday party it was all people were talking about. So, it’s still very much alive, still very much a part of in the forefront of our consciousness. And people are still processing. And I think films like this can help that process.

LAMB: What was the impact on you?

HOLSTEN: Of 9/11 or the film?

LAMB: 9/11.

HOLSTEN: Well, it’s interesting, 9/11 happened when I was in the throes of editing this one film. And I kind of pushed it away and I kind of saying – I remember my partner saying, ”Everything’s going to be different from now on.” And I kept saying, ”That’s silly. Everything won’t be different.” But, in fact, I think everyone was kind of right about that.

But in reviewing the footage for the film, I think I lived – sort of experienced it in more of a primal way when we were doing the footage and reviewing sort of the calamity and the nature of it and hearing people talk about it. The impact on me it’s more of – I gravitate towards Mychal’s message more than ever, which is put others first, don’t worry about tomorrow, be in today, be in today fully with whatever you’re engaged with, whoever you’re engaged with, and do your best.

LAMB: Sir Ian McKellan talks about – or at least voices over – how Mychal Judge became a priest.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MCKELLAN: Nineteen forty-eight Robert Emmett Judge entered St. Joseph Seraphic Seminary in Callicoon, New York. He was 15 years old, 129 miles from home. After six years of seminary and theology study, he was received into the Franciscan order. He took the name Talin (ph) Mychal, a fusion of his parents’ names. In 1961 he was ordained a priest. Father Mychal Judge was 27 years old.

LAMB: How Irish was he?

HOLSTEN: He was so Irish. I was – in learning – my ancestry is German American. And I was somewhat ignored. Irish community is so very tight in Mychal’s life and I was sort of jealous of that sort of sense of identity of nationality. I think it has to do with the war and when my parents were growing up at the same time as Mychal was growing up. Germany wasn’t a popular place to be from.

But Mychal loved his Irish heritage. He would go back to his – to Ireland to search out his father’s house. He had very meaningful conversations. He was honored as Irishman of the year by the fire department. He wore his Irish tradition proudly

LAMB: There was a humorous moment in this documentary, more than one. And it was about the – his vehicle.

HOLSTEN: Yes.

LAMB: Let’s watch.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: One day he came up to my office and he just got his own fire department car with a siren and the lights. And he took me for a ride up and down Broadway running the siren, flashing the lights. It was thoroughly joyous. He gave so much. We had to give back to him. And that was something that he would take. So, it was important for us to – at least to – if we knew he was in Jersey doing a baptism that we could eventually get him back here, because sooner or later we were going to need him.

UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: The fire car. Bells and whistles, sirens and lights and gadgets. He loved that car. And he took care of it, too. And he got the best gas in Brooklyn and it brought him to the best cup of coffee in Brooklyn. The back of that New York City fire vehicle was full of more goods than any social service center in New York City. He had socks. He had underwear. He had bottled water. He had canned food. That thing was stuffed with all sorts of things for the poor, for the homeless, for guys who were living alone with HIV/AIDS. That’s why he loved the car. He couldn’t tell you if it was a Ford or Chevy, but he loved that car because it got him around with good things.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LAMB: How much of his time was spent being the chaplain for the fire department?

HOLSTEN: Well, it was, I think, eight years at the end of his career.

LAMB: Was it a full-time job?

HOLSTEN: Yes. Yes. He had a very successful career in New Jersey as a parish priest, a very sort of typical parish priest career trajectory and then had a year in Canterbury and then came back and decided he wanted to be in New York City and wanted to be really with the homeless and with people who had extreme need, that he could – he thought he was best suited for that.

LAMB: Where did you find Eddie Mouson?

HOLSTEN: He was a friend of Patrick Kowalski, who worked in the AIDS ministry with Father Mychal Judge.

LAMB: He just – he didn’t have AIDS?

HOLSTEN: No. Patrick Kowalski – Eddie is – was a former homeless man who helped Mychal in his ministry. St. Francis has a street, a bread line, where they feed and give out clothes to the homeless. And Eddie would help Mychal with that.

LAMB: Let’s introduce our – your audience to Eddie.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

EDDIE MOUSON: Let’s face it, you know, you could drink beers. They don’t put no bag on it. You could just have a beer. This is basically like one o’clock at night. I was sitting there drinking. It’s crowded, full of people. Everybody got beers. I got my music. I think I was dancing. Then all of a sudden there’s a man in a robe coming towards me. I got the beer like this. I said, ”My Father Mychal.” He said, ”Eddie.” I’m scared. I’m shaking. Everybody’s looking at me because they’re like where does this pastor know this jive from. And he’s embracing me like he always do. He’s going to embrace you. I don’t care. He embrace you.

And he said, ”Eddie, I’m going to take you to AA, OK?” I said, ”OK.” And we left. I got the hell out of there.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LAMB: How did you find Eddie?

HOLSTEN: Well, he was – Patrick Kowalski was another interviewee in the film. They’re friends. And so …

LAMB: Well, let’s watch Patrick Kowalski so we know what you’re talking about.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PATRICK KOWALSKI (ph): He’s come early in the morning and he would come and ask me how many coats do you need this winter. And I’d give him a number and we’d go down to Canal Street, where he knew several of the owners personally, owners of these clothing stores. And we’d got in and he would say, ”I want the cheapest price you’re going to give me. These are going to homeless people. I’m a priest and I don’t have money.” He would really play it up.

MOUSON: With that robe on, it was basically like Jesus Christ coming after you. So, you know …

KOWALSKI: He would wheel and deal with these store owners.

MOUSON: We’d get at least about – maybe about 10 boxes, like 40 coats in each box.

KOWALSKI: They would bicker back and forth, but he’d always win.

MOUSON: All three of us is in the front of the car. He’d have all the boxes in the back seat. The back – all of us is squeezed or maybe a box squeezed in right in between us. And I couldn’t – to this day I don’t even know if he paid for it to tell you the truth.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LAMB: I’ve got to tell you, when I saw this myself I wondered if Pat Kowalski would have made it through all this. Is he still alive?

HOLSTEN: No. He died soon after we finished the film. But they had a screening in his hospital room. Brendan took it in and Mary Lanning (ph), another one of the people who’s a hospice care worker who’s interviewed in the film, had a screening with Patrick. And he was very pleased. And he was very interested in seeing the film finished. He had been sick with HIV and AIDS for years and was fair when we interviewed him. But I was very happy to know that he had seen the final product and approved.

LAMB: And I want to say to our audience by now it’s very frustrating because we’re chopping this up. But what we have to tell them is it’s not our documentary. It’s yours. You’ve been generous enough to let us use a lot of this. And they can get it if they want to watch the whole thing.

Was it done in high definition?

HOLSTEN: It was. It was. It was my second high definition project. I’m a big fan of the format.

LAMB: Does that cost you more?

HOLSTEN: It’s a bit more. It’s changing now, but postproduction-wise it’s definitely more of a financial commitment.

LAMB: Do you own your own equipment? Do you shoot yourself?

HOLSTEN: I don’t. I don’t own a lick of technology besides a laptop. It’s all rental. And I don’t shoot. I have a wonderful cameraperson I work with named Chris Landy, who’s got, as you can see, a terrific eye.

LAMB: And you didn’t do this on the laptop, did you?

HOLSTEN: No, no.

LAMB: There is another surprise that comes in this movie about Father Judge. Let’s watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: I don’t think anybody knew Mychal was an alcoholic. And it was during the Sienna years when he was working in a campus. That’s when he entered AA and found a sobriety. And he would later share with me right under our nose in the dormitory he was mixing drinks in the morning for breakfast. And he said he remembered looking at a green liquor in his bathroom. He had four or five liquors and he was mixing all sorts of drinks. And he said, ”This is out of control.”

UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: St. Patrick’s Day 1991 I was off to my meeting just to get through another day sober. And next the door opens and in walks Mychal Judge. And I remember being amazed at that. He’s just gone from marching with Governor Cuomo, all his friends, the fire department. They’re all off in various places celebrating and here he is taking care of himself and taking care of his soul and his spirit as a recovering alcoholic, as a sober Irishman.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LAMB: That gentleman had something to do with this film, didn’t he?

HOLSTEN: Yes, he’s a co-producer. Yes, Brendan.

LAMB: What does that mean when you’re a producer? How do you – what’s the difference between being a producer and a director?

HOLSTEN: Well, the producer – as a co-producer Brendan brought a lot of Mychal’s world to us. He opened a lot of doors to people who didn’t know me from anybody. And because he was in sort of – woven into Mychal’s world, he knew Mychal’s life story inside and out. And he was very helpful in sort of helping us craft a film that would be sort of sensitive to and honor all of the different aspects of Mychal’s life, including his commitment to sobriety.

LAMB: How long was he – well, you’re always an alcoholic. But how long was he a drinker?

HOLSTEN: Well, gee, his friend Michael McNicholas says it in the film. I can’t remember actually. It was significant years, because at Sienna College. It was the beginning of his ministry career. So, maybe 40 years he was sober.

LAMB: So, he was an alcoholic and he was a gay man. When did he know he was gay? Is it all his life?

HOLSTEN: I don’t know. I don’t know. I only know when he was out to people and as – in the later half of his life. I guess – it’s – I don’t really know.

LAMB: One of the clips in your documentary is about the decision of the treatment of gays by the Catholic Church. Did they cooperate with you in this in any way?

HOLSTEN: No. No. In fact, at every screening someone says, ”Did you give a copy of this to the Vatican?” I think I’m sure they have one, but I …

LAMB: What’s the Catholic law about – canon law about gays?

HOLSTEN: Well, right now – I mean, as recently as last year when we were finishing up the film, the – there was an effort to – I think there’s an unofficial word that gay seminarians should not be accepted. So, it’s a pretty negative …

LAMB: Did the church know he was gay? And, as a matter of fact, while we’re talking about this, how can you be gay when you’re a celibate?

HOLSTEN: Well, everyone has a sexuality. I mean, you can be a heterosexual and be celibate as well. So, that’s not a really – it’s one or the other. You can be – you have a sexuality and you’re celibate.

Did the church know he was gay? No one in our interviews – it wasn’t a line of questioning that I pursued, and so it wasn’t anything that I thought it would – I didn’t think I would get anywhere pursuing that kind of …

LAMB: But the Vatican wouldn’t give you a statement in support of Mychal Judge to this?

HOLSTEN: No. I mean, in the film you see at the end after his funeral the pope blesses his helmet. And that, to me, is very beautiful, that sort of all that Mychal Judge embraced was blessed by the pope and – but along the way I think Mychal Judge might have been a bit of a – his AIDS ministry activism and all of that during a time when the Vatican’s coming down on people with AIDS. I think it was – it just might have been a thorn – he might have been a bit of a thorn.

LAMB: Here’s how you dealt with the Catholic Church situation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Fifteen years gay and lesbian Catholics have been able to attend a special Sunday evening mass, sponsored by an organization of Catholic homosexuals known as Dignity.

UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Dignity was part of a flourishing movement of renewal that was taking place within the Catholic Church. Mychal, of course, like many others, sought out this community and felt very much at home and made important friendships there. So, as well as being an important minister to this community, it also became, I would say, a family for him.

UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Our Father who art in heaven …

UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Of course, all that changed in October, 1986. The Vatican issued a letter on the pastoral care of homosexuals in the church. This letter was issued at the height of the AIDS crisis. And here was this word coming from the Vatican from the heart of our church, from our leadership.

It actually came from the CDF, which is the Congregation for the Doctrine and the Faith, headed at that time by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI. Our church was sending a message which for all of us was a message of rejection.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LAMB: Where’s Brendan Fay from?

HOLSTEN: He’s from my home. He’s in New York. He lives in New York City now. He was involved in Dignity in New York. And Mychal was involved in Dignity, which is the group of Catholic gay members.

LAMB: Will this all be harder to deal with if you lived in a city far away from New York in a smaller town in the Midwest or out West?

HOLSTEN: Mychal’s story?

LAMB: Mychal’s story.

HOLSTEN: You know, Mychal’s story is about a man who followed his heart and conscience. And I don’t think that would have changed in a small town. I think Mychal always worked under the radar screen. He wasn’t an activist out in front lines or on talk shows, but it’s –what the film is is an accumulation of these quiet moments of activism that are significant and profound in their meaning, especially during, I think, the New York – the AIDS crisis in New York City where Mychal was around and providing messages of comfort to dying men, mostly gay men at the time.

I think Mychal would have done it in a small town. I think he would have done the exact same thing.

LAMB: So, how do you feel about this after it was all over and the reaction you’re getting from people? This has been out since April.

HOLSTEN: Yes. It premiered at the Tribeca Film Festival in New York, which was a tremendous home place for it to be sort of borne to the world. And the satisfying thing is people from all different corners of Mychal’s life were at the screenings. There were five different screenings. And people stood up and shared that this was, one, they felt it was a good, accurate picture of Mychal, and, two, that they had other stories to share about Mychal. And so, that was really, really satisfying.

I think in terms of a message at the fifth anniversary of 9/11 I think Mychal’s words are as calming and soothing and needed now as ever. So, I think it’s – the film is right on time.

LAMB: Where did you go to school for all this, learn how to do this?

HOLSTEN: I studied literature at the University of Pennsylvania. And I think it was a great background. I didn’t know it at the time what I’d be doing, but I studied playwriting and fiction. So, the ideas of character and narrative development and all that comes to play. It’s really a good match, but unknown to me at the time.

LAMB: And what year did you get out of the University of Pennsylvania?

HOLSTEN: Nineteen eighty-four.

LAMB: So, what’s next?

HOLSTEN: Well, I – while I was working on this I traveled for a month in China with a friend of colleague of mine, who’s an artist, a woman named Lilly Yay (ph). And I followed her life story as she went back to China to sort of face the ghosts of her father’s life. And so, that film is called ”The General’s Daughter.” And hopefully I’ll be editing it over the next year and it’ll be out in festivals next summer.

LAMB: It sounds like a leading question. I guess it is. Are you doing exactly what you want to do?

HOLSTEN: I am. It wasn’t a plan. I didn’t sit down and make a 10-year plan, but I’m completely satisfied. It’s a really satisfying way to live in the world.

LAMB: Let’s close out with, once again, looking at the whole clip of that scene where Father Judge is being carried by the firemen after he was killed.

HOLSTEN: OK.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: .. was still standing. And there was this real eerie light. It was a weird day. There was this beautiful light coming in. And as I was getting near the tower people were starting to evacuate down the stairs. I noticed that there was a group, like firemen and police and FBI and emergency services, carrying this man.

So, I started making some frames. And the one fireman started yelling at me, ”Stop taking photos. Stop taking photos.” I kept shooting.

UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: It’s such a striking photograph, this big man, obviously in anguish. And Mychal limp and serene at the same time. And their arms – it reminded me a lot of the pieta.

CARROLL (ph): This is how Mychal would have prayed to have had the last day of his life transpire, doing what he loved. This was one of the most horrific moments in American history. And he would’ve been nowhere else on the face of the earth but with all those folks.

Mychal wasn’t a hero in 9/11. He was doing his job.

(END VIDEOTAPE)