LIONEL, HOST, THE LIONEL SHOW: That covers it. Well, I think that this term is probably one of the most misused, misunderstood in terms that I come across. In fact, since my – in my 20 years in talk radio, I came in right when Rush Limbaugh really hit it big, and I was familiar with the term, but not really. It became used by people to connote a rock-ribbed, all-American, God-fearing, Bible-respecting, all-American, right, heterosexual, good type of person. The antithesis of this, the antipodal person, of course, was the dreaded liberal. I had no idea what they were talking about. I didn’t know who these liberals were. I wanted to kill them myself. I mean they were against everything that we stood for, and what I found out was that I have – I was just inundated with a bunch of lug heads, who co-opted that term.

The more and more I realized it, the more I realized the term conservative could only been something far more interesting, which I share a lot of. The conservative I speak of is the cookie-cutter, bumper sticker, echo chamber, RNC acolyte. The republican, in essence, not really somebody who wants to confirm much of anything, and so as far as that person goes, it was a pretty provocative chapter. But that type of person I loathe.

I would like to add something, if I could. If I could append the book, I have found out that there is a – the antithesis of this is the far – really that connotes something a far right-wing. The far left is probably just as insane, but in other directions. And may I could – if I could, rather, could I tell you what the difference between far right and far left is? It’s a very simple thing. We have a camera here. Is this here? Very simple. Here is far right. Here is far left. That’s it. One is you’ve got to be kidding. The other one is, oh, stop, please. Relax. Take it easy. That’s unrealistic. Far right is you can’t do that. That’s mean. That’s not right, it’s not – you must tolerate. Far left – oh, stop it. Grow up. Pay attention. Both of them – and I think if you – if you push them far enough, they’ll meet. I think I’ve done enough talking, Brian. Thank you so much and goodnight.

BRIAN LAMB: What is a lawyer like you doing on talk radio?

LIONEL: Well, if you really go down the list of who’s a lawyer, I mean just in terms of politics and TV, there’s a lot. I never ever wanted to do this. I mean I do now. That wasn’t my goal. I happen to be a caller and found that I could use the airwaves of people and their license and their facilities to basically spew whatever I wanted to say using a variety of accents and calling multiple times. I had three rules as a caller, if I could tell you. The first one is be the first caller. Set the tone for the day. Set – be the first one. Number two, never talk about what the host is talking about, never. And number three, when at all possible, consult his family. So your first, you’ve ticked them off, and then you can sit back like a radio terrorist and watch this conflagration ensue. So I did this just as a hobby.

BRIAN LAMB: Where did you …

LIONEL: Tampa, Florida.

BRIAN LAMB: Can you remember the first time?

LIONEL: Radio?

BRIAN LAMB: Yes.

LIONEL: Just kidding. Well, yes, as a matter of fact. But it was – I was 11. Then that was a different story. But yes, I do remember. It was Jack Anderson Jack Anderson (ph) was the first person that called, and it was – it was a station called WPLP (ph), I think it was, 570 AM, and I didn’t even know what AM radio was. I was cleaning a tub. It – I had this radio on, and AM radio was, to me, two things. One was (INAUDIBLE), and I (INAUDIBLE). So I said what is this? And it was this talk radio show, and I called up and I asked an inane question. I thought that’s not very much fun. So I called back again and basically let them have it.

BRIAN LAMB: Just as a Jack Anderson , not the national Jack Anderson . Or was it?

LIONEL: This was the …

BRIAN LAMB: Columnist?

LIONEL: Columnist, yes. And I thought this was fun.

BRIAN LAMB: How old were you?

LIONEL: Oh, 22, three, whatever it is. Yes, I guess. Twenty two, three. I just started law school, and I was just playing around with this. And then later on, I found out that they didn’t – when they called up, they never gave names to people. They just said, OK, the Bronx, let’s go to Cherry Hill, you’re on. And I thought Cherry Hill? There’s no personality to that. So I happened to pick this – I was watching this movie, just happened to have it on the day before. Scarecrow with Gene Hackman and Al Pacino, and there was a character named Lionel, and I just – it was in my head, and they said what is your name? I said Lionel. OK, that’s my name. So I went on and spewed my bile and called back again. They recognized my voice, which is easy to recognize. Somebody said it’s like Curly Howard and Benzedrine, Joe Pesci on helium, whatever. So the person said, oh, this is Lionel. I said, oh, yes. Right, yes. Sure, whatever. And then that stuck.

BRIAN LAMB: And your maiden name, your original name.

LIONEL: Hiawatha Lip Shit. But I’d rather not get into that. No, my name – my real name is Michael Lebron, and if it wasn’t for LeBron James. So nobody – and people wanted to know that. You know, I was on MSNBC once, and I said wait a minute, we have to know your name. I said that’s – you ask Sting not that I’m in the same category. You put Gordon Sumner (ph). And they said, well, Lionel what? I said there is no what. It’s – this poor girl’s 20 years old. What do you mean there’s no last – you have no last name? I said I’m anonymous, and the best line ever was – it was an Indian cab driver in New York. Imagine that. And he said – he recognized me. He said, oh, he says what is your name? I said Lionel. He goes Lionel what? I said no, there’s no what. He says, oh, like God. And I said yes, like God. So that’s my name: Lionel, one name, like God.

BRIAN LAMB: How many times did you call a call-in show before you had your own?

LIONEL: A couple – years. It was maybe – well, God, five years, six years. What happened was it was a great fellow, poor man. His name was Bob Shuman. He was a WFLA 970, WFLA in his. He was the program director, and his wife, Cindy, I believe, said why don’t you get this guy who’s calling. They already know who he is. Put him on the air. It’s a built-in audience, and it was a small, you know.

So I got a call from him, and he said, you know, would you like to meet and talk about this? I was really unsure. I said, look, I said I’ve got to use the name Lionel. I don’t want to use my real name, and I don’t want to solicit for, you know, legal stuff, which I hate lawyer commercials. Are you injured? Do you know somebody who wants to be injured? Would you like to be injured? We fight for you. I didn’t want to have it look like that. So I met with him, and I knew that weekend program oftentimes was subject to barter and trade, where somebody will come in, and he sells vitamins and pays, you know, the station X amount. So I thought I’d have to pay something. This is true. I didn’t know anything.

So I showed up with a friend of mine. We were lawyers. I said wear a – wear a tie. It looked like you know what we’re talking about, and when it came time for money, they wanted me to do a four-hour show, Sundays three to seven, and they said we should talk about money. I said yes. I said good idea. He said, well, what do you think’s fair? And in a brilliant piece of negotiating, I said, well, what do you think’s fair? And he said $100. And I said, oh. He said, well, that’s all we can pay you. I said what? I’m not kidding. I said you’re going to pay me? What a country! So let me get this straight. I’m going to come into your station, spend four hours having the time of my life, risking your license and lawsuits, radio Tirol, and you’re going to pay me $25? It’s a deal.

So I went in and I brought sandwiches and my friends. My mother was taking a photography class at the time. I said take pictures of me because next week I’m not on the radio. This can’t – this can’t happen. Walked in. Programmer said this is the button, this is the dump button. It’s very important, seven seconds. And he says something, you know, naughty, and then we’ll see you at seven. And that was it. That was October of ’88. And then January of ’89 they said how would you like to do middays, nine to noon? And I said I’m not working for $100. I upped it up. I upped the price considerably, and then seven months later I did an afternoon ride in ’89. So when people ask me how do you get into radio, I said just wait, they’ll call you, as they did. And the rest is history.

BRIAN LAMB: I think the world can be divided in the listen and listen-not. I’m a listener to all talk radio, all sides, and I unfortunately have had to hear you in the middle of the night.

LIONEL: Think of my relatives.

BRIAN LAMB: When can people hear you do your live show, and where?

LIONEL: Well, right now, I’m doing a – we’re sitting here – I’m sitting here through the Air America family, if you will, in Washington. It’s afternoon drive, three to six. It could be nine to noon. It could be delayed broadcast. It could be online at either airamerica.com or lionelonline.com. If I could just say something about how the industry has changed, we have – not only do we have regular terrestrial radio with, you know, the stick isn’t worth, but there’s online radio. There’s podcasts, and people can listen when they want, appointment radio. They can watch a video of me do a daken chat (ph). While I’m talking, while they’re watching me, they can then hear it. It’s – the old days, when you were Rush Limbaugh, you were on from noon to three, and that’s it, and if you weren’t in that city at that time – that’s all changed, so. In fact, if you go into a Radio Shack, ask them to buy a radio and watch what they say. They’ll look at you like you’ve asked for a festaris modulator (ph). So the world has changed tremendously in terms of the delivery system.

BRIAN LAMB: Are you carried on an XM or Sirius?

LIONEL: You know, that’s a good question. We – they just merged. It was on – I don’t know. Go check.

BRIAN LAMB: You live where full time?

LIONEL: In New York, Hell’s Kitchen.

BRIAN LAMB: You were born and raised in Florida. Tampa, graduated …

LIONEL: Second generation.

BRIAN LAMB: What undergrad school?

LIONEL: It was the University of South Florida. Affectionately know as– yes, Harvard on Hillsborough we live in, yes.

BRIAN LAMB: Hillsborough County.

LIONEL: Yes.

BRIAN LAMB: Law school at Stetson.

LIONEL: Stetson.

BRIAN LAMB: What year did you get your law degree?

LIONEL: Eighty-three.

BRIAN LAMB: So it’s ’83 to ’88, and then you’re in – you’re in this business.

LIONEL: Right, because I was a prosecutor. I got out of law school in ’83, went to work. Did the calling while I was doing it, you know, using the nome-de-guerre, whatever. As long as it was a speakerphone, I could do whatever I wanted to, and then be …

BRIAN LAMB: As a listener, I – and correct me if I’m wrong, I hear you had the most fun and go off the most often on the media.

LIONEL: Absolutely.

BRIAN LAMB: On media that would be defined as conservative and liberal. What is it that – what punches your button?

LIONEL: The advent of 24/7 has – I don’t know, Brian, what the analogy would be, but it’s not the fast food, it’s not the catnip, it’s predigest. The mother bird who has to predigest the worm to give it to the – that’s what it is. It’s 24/7, and it is absolutely, to me, hysterical. Fox – you can say whatever you want about Fox. Fox has no predecessor. The – you know precisely what you’re going to get. My latest fun network is MSNBC. It’s just – I mean I – and I agree with a lot of what they’re saying, but it is – I’m 50, and I remember the old days of, you know, opinion reporting reportage. You know, this is Huntley-Brinkley you know, NBC, you know, Sander Vanocur, Frank McGee, you know, that Huntley-Brinkley . They would roll over in their graves if – or they are, I should say.

BRIAN LAMB: One is still alive, so …

LIONEL: Gerald Ford one time said if Abraham Lincoln were alive today, I think he said this, he’d roll over in his grave. I hope Sandra Vanocur’s still with us.

BRIAN LAMB: I think he is.

LIONEL: OK, very good. So what I’m seeing right now is this absolutely incredible – Chris Matthews in these homoerotic peons to Fred Thompson (ph). You have Keith Olbermann , who is doing this, trying to channel Edward R. Murrow, and I think this is just, frankly, nothing short of a scandalous purloining of this valedictory good night and good luck. What’s the matter was – and that’s the way it is. Was that taken? And yet I see this absolute Obama-centric reporting, and I’m going to vote for Obama. I don’t mind it. I am in awe of what I’m seeing. I cannot believe this, that this is first news. I don’t expect anything from him. There is no NBC to Fox. There is no – when – to see this nouveau reporting bring in Tom Brokaw and suggest that maybe he should kind of move to the side. Oh, it’s an interesting (ph) value that is fascinating.

BRIAN LAMB: How do you – I must say, you mentioned earlier, when I first started finding you on the dial, it was your voice that I heard, and it is different.

LIONEL: Yes, as is scurvy.

BRIAN LAMB: No, I mean it’s just a different sounding radio voice.

LIONEL: Absolutely.

BRIAN LAMB: How do you distinguish yourself? You know, when you sit down at that console everyday, what is it you do that’s different than everybody else?

LIONEL: I don’t – I don’t listen to radio. I don’t like talk radio. I don’t – I’ll give you an example. In the – in the ’60s, there was a type of radio person called, affectionately, the puker, and it was kind of (INAUDIBLE). It was seven after the hour, (INAUDIBLE), and I laugh at these people, and I would imagine that one of the best ways that we could stop childhood pregnancy is to have them explain the sex act like that. A man becomes excited and aroused, and after the hour come – you know, it just – people – kids would say you know what? I just don’t want to – so a lot of the people would get into talk radio from that point of view. I’ve worked with people who, for whatever reason, would punctuate sometimes the most serious discussions with the time. I thought it was not really that important, but you’re saying, you know, as far as I’m concerned, the Holocaust is the darkest – eight after the hour, you know.

So I’m anti-radio. I don’t want to be like these people, don’t want to talk like them.

BRIAN LAMB: So you don’t listen to others, and so you have no idea what anybody else is talking about.

LIONEL: No. Frankly, and this may be just a prank (ph), I don’t care what people have to say. I really – I mean I – there are very few opinions that I listen to and say wow, that’s really good. I think I go more for print, and especially now during the election there are very few people – because what I’m hearing is just a regurgitation of nothing. Let’s take a (INAUDIBLE) on that, you know, all day long on that. Nobody’s really tackling the electoral process, which I find more interesting, save, of course, believe it or not, Mike Huckabee, I believe his name is. Not Mike Huckabee. Mike Murphy or – and Pat Buchanan. They are the most interesting when it comes to dissecting the process of the election and not just being cheerleaders for one side or another.

BRIAN LAMB: This book, ”Everyone’s Crazy Except You and Me, and I’m Not So Sure About You, America’s Favorite Contrarian Cuts Loose,” published by Hyperion. Isn’t that a Disney product? Why the book?

LIONEL: Well, I put out the word that I’m interested in writing a book. If you’ve ever gone into a Barnes & Noble or Borders, you’ll find that everybody’s written a book. I talked to my managers. I said you know, I think now is about time – I think I should enter the world of authorhood and weigh in, and I didn’t want to do the typical, you know, why liberals are stupid or why – there’s a lot in here which I wanted to discuss. I’ve always – everybody has a book or something in them. They want to just – these are a series of little essays, sometimes two pages, nothing that deep. But I wanted to tackle some civil libertarian issues, hate crimes, which I hate, and the death penalty, which I abhor are not for why people. And then I have an ode, a peon (peein? Ph), if you will, to professional wrestling that should change my life. I almost killed my sister with a Hoover upright. That’s true.

BRIAN LAMB: By the way, I want – and this is way off the subject. Tell the story about your sister.

LIONEL: I’ve always wanted to just – my sister was the first person that I victimized as a child. She was two years younger.

BRIAN LAMB: Two years younger.

LIONEL: And I told her, for example, that she was adopted, and the police brought her, which I thought added a little flavor, a little – something different. The police brought you. Why? Penalty or something? And I told her that she had arthritis. I convinced her of that as a child. She was very skinny. One time she had eczema on her arm. I convinced her that during an episode, which she cannot remember because of the trauma, she stuck her arm in a barbecue pit and burned her arm, and just would torment her for reasons, bless her heart, and she’s survived somewhat.

On my 12th birthday, I was vacuuming, and my sister had long hair, which she was trying to grow for her entire life. My sister’s hair grew at a snail’s pace, and she tried everything to deliver that title of Cher, everything from putting on wigs to towels to – so finally, she got her hair long enough. I was vacuuming with an upright Hoover, and Brian, we’re talking 1970s nuclear Hoover with beaters and nothing. We’re not talking the Oreck… We’re talking this thing could pick up cannon balls, if you wanted. And as she was looking under the couch for something, her hair was on the rug, and I said, oh, hair, Hoover, hair, Hoover. Let’s see. And I can remember the thing, the sound and the smell of an electric motor, and my sister mimicking Al Pacino in the horrid Godfather Three or the shriek, you know.

It was – and I thought the fact that my mother did not kill – and this was minutes before my party was to start. My mother was saying we’re going to have to cut your hair. My sister was screaming hysterically. They unraveled the hair from the beater. She had a unique wave to it, kind of a waffle wave. My mother threw me outside and demanded of my guests to my party were showing up with guests, with gifts, not to talk to me. It was a rather terse birthday. And my mother’s saying happy birthday. Moreover, it was devoid of any humanity. It was just (INAUDIBLE) gritting, grinding. It was to say, I’ll never forget, August 26, 1970, a day that will live in infamy.

BRIAN LAMB: Where is your mom …

LIONEL: They’re still – they’re still alive, I think.

BRIAN LAMB: Your father?

LIONEL: Same.

BRIAN LAMB: What kind of background did they have?

LIONEL: He was a lawyer. But never practiced. He was in the wholesale liquor industry. It was a family business. He had an illustrious career. You know, we talk about John McCain and what he did for his country, but my father served his country in a way that was so horrible he can’t even speak of it. He was chief cashiers of the officers mess, wore Hawaiian shirts and played Poker during his tenure serving our great country. He has, of course, the only medal of a full house with Oak-leafed clusters. He never carried a gun, played Poker in service of his country. Proudly, I might add.

BRIAN LAMB: And your mom?

LIONEL: Housewife, then became a nurse, then back to being a housewife. My source of – could tell a story better than anybody. Really gave me the love of words, you know, just arcane words. I love to use words that make people say, what?

BRIAN LAMB: Yes, as a matter fact, I’m going to quote you here in a few minutes on some words that I needed an explanation on. Your sister, by the way, before we leave that topic, does she still speak to you today, and where does she live, and what does she do …

LIONEL: She’s in a witness protection program. She was involved in an untroubled white-collar crime mostly. No, she’s fine. She’s married, and I’ve got another little sister, who’s 10 years younger, who I let go. But seriously, you know, when you’re a kid, the only person you can talk to, and I’m the oldest, is your sister, and of course, you – or your sibling, and she was a source of constant amusement. By the way, another thing I found out was I lived in Florida, which is, well I call it Flawda, F-L-A-W-D-A. (INAUDIBLE) South Beach, that’s where you go. I’m from Tampa, which is nice. But it would be – it would be so ungodly hot in the summers, we will play hide and go seek, and I wouldn’t go look for her, and she’d be out there waiting, and she’d come up to the door, and I’d say, oh, there you are. I said, you know, you’re not going to win. Are you looking for me? Of course I’m looking for you. I’m starting here, of course, and so – bless her heart.

BRIAN LAMB: I did see a reference once in your book to your Sicilian background.

LIONEL: Yes, the only – the only ethnicity I knew growing up was my grandmother, Angelina (ph), and her sisters. Sicilian, her family initially was from Santo Stefano via Argentina. Don’t go there. But she apparently, it seems that perhaps my great grandfather had to leave Cicely for reasons that we’re really rather not get into. Even though he’s been dead for many years, the stain on our family is still fresh. But yes, the only thing I ever knew was hearing my aunts speak this. Sundays were exactly like you heard. You know, this incredible cacophony of loud. And my grandfather was – he spoke only Spanish. My grandmother spoke Spanish, Sicilian and English, and my father (INAUDIBLE). So I – that was a – and Tampa was a very, and still is – was a group of Cuban cigar makers. Both of them were cigar makers, put my father through college and law school, and it was a great Sicilian influence there. So it was a very interesting multi-cultural city.

BRIAN LAMB: Air America, we – Al Franken was on Air America he was running for the Senate and Mark Green is involved here, ran for mayor several times in New York City. He owns Air America?

LIONEL: I cannot give you the exact structure right now, but it has been repurchased, restructured, reconstituted, and some very capable people are now running the show in addition to Mark Green, Charlie Kireker, Betit Zeer(ph), Bill Hess, radio pros. It has a tremendous name brand. You tell people that and they just, you know, they could’ve sworn, didn’t they go bankrupt? And I’m saying wait a minute, didn’t Lehman Brothers go bankrupt? Oh, yes, that’s right. Well, Air America’s still here. Lehman Brothers is not.

BRIAN LAMB: Who’s on it now? Who’s …

LIONEL: Lehman Brothers? I have no idea.

BRIAN LAMB: No. Who’s on Air America? Who are the other talk show hosts?

LIONEL: Well, other than me, there’s Rachel Maddow, who is the star – the newest star of MSNBC, and deservedly so. We have Thom Hartmann.

BRIAN LAMB: He’s from Portland.

LIONEL: Portland. Richard Greene, Jon Elliott and Bobby Kennedy, Junior, and I’m trying to think. We have weekend programming, Mark Green , Arianna Huffington , Mike Papantonio. Just a variety of – just a veritable hodgepodge, if you were.

BRIAN LAMB: Well, somebody here used be on Air America and sat in that chair once, and we chatted. It was Randi Rhodes. What happened to her? She’s still on? I know I can still hear her in Washington, but she’s not on Air America anymore.

LIONEL: No, she’s not. She’s moved on to other pastures, I hope greener. Still broadcasting. I don’t know. Nobody consulted with me. I like her a lot. She’s a good friend of mine, and I don’t – and I don’t …

BRIAN LAMB: The reason I ask is if you believe what you read, she got fired for a remark she made off stage – off microphone, on stage in San Francisco, and the reason I bring it up is indeed …

LIONEL: Why are you bringing this up? Just kidding.

BRIAN LAMB: No, but how far can you go, I mean and do you worry about what you say? For instance, will you not criticize Rachel Maddow because she’s on Air America, but you would go after Keith Olbermann ?

LIONEL: Well, you know, one of the things, as far as Randi and I’ll give you a Bible or a Koran or Tull (Talmud?) (ph), whatever you have, nobody consulted with me. I really couldn’t tell you the – you know, what happened and who did what, or whatever. I know the things that are being said. Second question is, are you worried about what you’re saying? Well, within reason. I mean not really.

BRIAN LAMB: But you don’t seem to in the book here. Just sound off …

LIONEL: No, no. But as far as Rachel Maddow goes, the one thing is, first of all, I believe in being collegial, and I don’t think it’s a good idea if you have your druthers – why are you going to go after somebody that you work with? I mean is it – I mean if Rachel did something really preposterous, yes, I would. But frankly, she doesn’t, and I’m a big fan of hers, so that’s very easy. Olbermann’s a different story because he’s in the news, and it’s – I am an observer, like anybody else is, because what he does is absolutely, you know, incredibly brilliant. But what I find fascinating about him is that he and Bill O’Reilly are chiral opposites. Look how many ways they’re similar, both of them large, both of them – I don’t want to say filled with themselves, but a great ego, and listen to me. Both of them from backgrounds where they want recognition. Bill O’Reilly, if I’m – I don’t know why he was – the current edition where he either won the Polk or the Peabody or something, either when he was with it, who knows. Keith from ESPN, now both of them societal forces. Also, going after each other. I love it. That’s professional wrestling. That’s a shoot. You can’t beat that.

And meanwhile, this poor Chris Matthews, who I don’t know what he’s talking about. Have you ever heard him go off on a rant about – he was talking about Fred Thompson one time, and I swear to you I don’t know what he was – Fred Thompson didn’t know. He said and when you see Fred, he had this wonderful – you’ve got to watch Chris Matthews. I’m a mouth person. He collects this saliva. You know any time it’s going to just hit there. He says Bill puts a Fred Thompson, because you can just smell the Aqua Velvet, the English Leather, the smell of dried shaving cream and an old dictionary. I don’t know what he’s talking about. I said Fred Thompson? He goes off on these rants, and I’m sorry but I love them. When he talks about his feeling for Barack Obama, he felt something go off his leg. I have yet to figure that one out. I think perhaps therapy may be in order for Chris , but that’s just fun to watch.

BRIAN LAMB: Well, as you know, since 1978, when Larry King started the National Radio Talk Show, it’s proliferated. It’s everywhere. There’s tons of them, but when you watch what’s happened, and that’s why I want to go back to your own technique, the more controversial you are, the more confrontational they are, the better it gets for you, the ratings go up. Just look at the television thing, the Lou Dobbs, the Keith Olbermann, even Chris Matthews the ratings go up.

LIONEL: You can say – there is no – there is no – and I don’t want there to be, there is no truth meter. Here’s a classic one. This is just as an example, if we have time, and by the way, may I just say, God bless this format, and there I say a format like maybe a Charlie Rose, where you don’t have to say thank you very much. Thank you very much? I just haven’t said anything. Not, coming up next! You know, that format I just… ick. But here’s an example that I will never forget. Bill O’Reilly, who just – I mean so much fun to watch. I don’t really watch him that much anymore, but when he makes a beautiful statement. He was saying something to the effect – either he or others were discussing the fact that, you know, we’re tired of hearing women suggest that maybe abortion should be safe for them, especially when there’s a risk of the mother dying. There’s no risk involved in pregnancy. You would think that the earth would fly into the sun. But somebody said wait a minute, he just – forget about dropping and epithet or a dreaded F bomb. This is worse. This is a factual inaccuracy that really is – and of course, there’s a topic – pregnancy and preeclampsia, that’s no big deal. (INAUDIBLE). Sean had a baby, who was a friend of mine and a colleague.

BRIAN LAMB: Friend, when you say friend …

LIONEL: I was at WABC, and we were …

BRIAN LAMB: In New York?

LIONEL: Yes, and oh, by the way, I have no – I mean I don’t know Bill from Adam, but Sean Hannity, Mark Levin, Rush Limbaugh, we worked together. Nice people. When we go to conventions, Talkers Magazine has them. It’s professional wrestling. He’s the deal, we’re the baby face. This is – this is, come on, we’re off the clock. They’re fine. Some people take it too seriously, but Sean— do you remember Terri Schiavo? BRIAN LAMB: Sure.

LIONEL: Terry Schiavo, who had a persistent vegetative state, and I’m no neurologist, but I – when I saw her in that terrible – when that law, that rictus, she was paralyzed, she was not smiling. She was not smiling, and I think anybody with a – with a warped sense would’ve realized that she’s not smiling. So he went down to her and says hello, she’s tracking the ball. She’s fine! Of course, neurologist after neurologist, and I’m thinking to myself, my God. Bill O’Reilly’s an OB/GYN. Sean Hannity is a neurologist.

You hear people – Glenn Beck never ceases to amaze me, the what? Steve Doocy on Fox and Friends. I am convinced they must sit around in the morning, either throw a few back and say can you give me something insane to say? I can make it work for you. Write this down: say that when Barack Obama and Michelle did this, that this is a terrorist bump. Good, I like that. That’s insane. Go for it, because that’s the only reason that I could think that these people would ever say this. But there’s no repercussions. It’s – and maybe if you’re too down the middle or too – that was my Blackberry, Lori (ph), which, by the way, we found out today John McCain invented the Blackberry. Did you hear that? Did – you will, bless his heart.

But the stuff that they say is just wrong. I – you know, and I’ve gotten used to it. I’m …

BRIAN LAMB: But take it a step further. I mean go back to the ratings game. The ratings for all of these folks you’re mentioning have gone up …

LIONEL: Oh, yes.

BRIAN LAMB: So do the people on the other end, and you talk to them, they call you, do they believe them, or do they listen to them because they agree with them? I mean give us – what’s the psychology of all of this, and why does it work?

LIONEL: I don’t know. One thing is – let me give you another question, which is a bigger question, which people in the industry will ask, and that is does liberal – I hate these terms, but does liberal radio work, or progressive radio? But does it work?

BRIAN LAMB: That’s Air America.

LIONEL: Right, that’s what the perception of it is. I’m telling you I’ve been doing the same show for 20 years, and you can call it Zoroastrian, for all I care. I don’t care. It’s up to you, and the idea is that what people forget about Rush and Sean and name it, and Glenn Beck, their opinion’s notwithstanding. They are great broadcasters, and they’re funny, and they were entertaining, and you – people – you know, I keep telling people it’s the messenger, stupid. It’s not the message. You can take a script from a Rush Limbaugh show, commit it to memory, repeat it next week. You’re not going to get any ratings. It’s him. For whatever it’s worth. I don’t know. I can’t explain golf, I can’t explain sushi, I can’t explain NASCAR, but they’re very popular, and what people forget, what detractors of these folks forget is that they’re great broadcasters, and they know what they’re doing.

You know, Paul Newman is a hero of mine, and what he did with his hole-in-the-wall business and salad dressing; raise money for kids stricken with cancer. Paul Newman realized that before a kid gets dollar one he’d better know about oil and vinegar ratios, and what people forget is that why these people are successful is that they’re great broadcasters, first. Their message – yes, that’s important. But people thought – there were some periods of time, I’m sorry, where some liberal lines came forward, like Mario Cuomo, to the radio show. Let me just put it to you this way: if ever they stop waterboarding, I suggest having a continuous loop tape of old Mario Cuomo shows. They’ll talk in a moment. Alan Dershowitz did a radio show. Oh, my God. I’d rather watch a trailer hitch rust than – I’d rather drink bleach than listen to this. It was awful, whereas the message I agreed with. But the delivery was just – it was morbid, at best.

BRIAN LAMB: A lot of people point to the 1987 Revocation of the Fairness Doctrine is when it all began, where people didn’t have to worry about equal time, you know, even they can go all conservative if they wanted to. A lot of liberals in Washington in politics are calling for the reestablishment of the Fairness Doctrine.

LIONEL: Better be careful what you ask for, because, number one, I learned this, and maybe you have. Be very careful about great-sounding laws. The Fairness Doctrine, the Patriot Act, No Child Left Behind. The better it sounds, the more you should be frightened. We live in a society, unfortunately, where who’s fair? What does that mean? What is the other side? From a legal point of view, from a definitional standard, I’m not sure we have to stop a show if Rush Limbaugh says, for example, you know, I think that John McCain is the best – stop.

Now for the opposing side is it’s going to kill radio, and also, very frankly, if you want to compete, build another radio station, dissect the newspapers and the like, I understand that when you’re on the opposite end of this Murdock mania, I understand that it frustrates you. It’s like my God, he owns everything. Isn’t there something we can do? I’m very, very careful. I’m very, very leery and very frightened of very serious First Amendment issues, which I address. Have you heard of the – I’m using your term, liberals talk about lobbying? I’ve got do something about lobbying in Washington. That sounds good. What if the lobbyist is PETA, or Greenpeace, or the Sierra Club? What about that? Well, that’s different. Be very careful what you ask for because were there to be a change, and were there to be a sudden seismic change in radio, and it was all Air America all the time, would you want that Fairness Doctrine in place then? I don’t think so.

LAMB: Let me just dip into your book and read a couple …

LIONEL: You go ahead.

LAMB: ”Simple minds have construed the world’s greatest novel, the Bible, as fact.” You can hear people right out there right now just falling off the couch when they hear that. ”No rational person, no one of rudimentary education, no person with a scintilla of common sense could possibly believe that, for emphasis. Adam and Eve, question mark. Puh-leez.” I could go on. But what’s your point? You don’t believe in the Bible?

LIONEL: I think there was some great quotes in the New Testament – do unto others, great. But Adam and Eve, I’m a retired Catholic. I was raised Catholic, and I have nothing but the utmost respect for my teachers and priests at the time, Jesuit priests, but they made me think, and I remember even as a child thinking Adam and Eve, the first two people ever, Adam and Eve, and Adam and Eve have Cain and Abel. And there was this guy Seth, which they don’t talk about. And Cain slays Abel. Now we’ve got Adam and Eve and Cain. Where do the Koreans come from? It was just a thought I had. This doesn’t make any sense. Well, they were over there. No, there was nobody over there. I think to myself, you know, maybe, just maybe, folks, this might have been a parable. I don’t think people would’ve been too hip to DNA and the double helix back then, and I think maybe we shouldn’t take this literally. I don’t think the earth is 6,000 years old. I just don’t, and I don’t – by the way, you can believe all you want. It’s a free country. I think people will laugh at the Koran. People made fun of Mitt Romney wearing the magic underwear. I’m thinking what’s so funny about that? Noah’s Ark is still mind boggling to me, that this go through what – this, and when you ask people do you really literally, and Noah and his family, everybody’s wiped out, and you’d better have two of every species, male and female, on that Ark? As Bill Cosby said, what’s an Ark? But anyway, and then after the water’s receded, where do the Koreans come from, you know? I – and people sometimes, maybe in their own – I don’t know, ignorance or insecurity will say no. This has to be correct, but yet they’ll laugh at the Koran. They’ll laugh at the Book of Mormon. Everybody else is funny.

There’s a group called Godhatesshrimp.com, and they look at Leviticus and Exodus, and there are very specific prohibitions and prescriptions against eating non-scaled fish, and their motto is pinch the head, such the head – pinch the head, suck the tail, burn in hell, and the point is that they took this very literal prohibition in the Old Testament, and they pick it red lobsters to show that – and yet people will say, oh, that’s silly. I think, in my humble opinion, and you’re entitled to whatever you think, but I have my right to say this, I think anybody who actually believes in Adam and Eve and creation as an absolute fact is – and this is important, acceptably insane. We’ll give you a pass on that one. If you walk around, go on the street, we might want to talk to you. But we collectively have allowed people to agree in this mythology. Now, we’re not going to arrest you for this, but (Steven Jay Gould) said that there are non-overlapping magisteria. You can believe in religion, and you can believe in science. Creationism is not in any way – isn’t backed by science. I don’t care what anybody says. Evolution, Pope Pius XII, John Paul the second, or JP Deuce, as I call him, invented the 16th through encyclicals, the Catholic Church that evolution. And these are not liberal. These are pretty doctrinaire, that evolution is a perfectly viable explanation for the development of mankind, as long as you believe that the final product is imbued with God. But Adam and Eve? Come on. I’m not going to ask you what you believe in, but you’re far too smart for that.

LAMB: Here’s another. ”No one wants to confront death as it is. Why not make stuff up? So we do. All of us, when we’re afraid, we make things up. We create a religion, a belief system, you name it, reincarnation, heaven, nirvana, the resurrection, transcendental whatever, anything to not address the fact that, as far as anyone can tell, as far as we have heard from those who have died, there is nothing to death but the cosmic POOF.” You write a lot about that.

LIONEL: There is a – if you cannot say, oh, death fascinates me like you cannot believe, and the reason is that mankind – human, our natural reflex is to see patterns and trends and things, and the locus of control is another issue that we have. There was some guy years ago. Don’t know his name, but this Neanderthal or whatever, he was walking around in a field, probably, and just imagine this. He’s – man at his earliest, Adam and Eve notwithstanding. Imagine man at his earliest sanctioned form who looks up and says what the heck is this? Imagine the first time they saw lightning and thunder. Is it not normal for somebody to say you know, I think there’s something up there. Why, because there’s this lightning, and it hits trees and kills animals, and I don’t know. And then man goes a step further. If I’m here, just as a cork, bobbing on the ocean of – and there’s no control of this, there’s no plan. This is some accident. Then that locus of control that will see you as is elsewhere, and I don’t like that. I want things to make sense.

So maybe through ignorance at first, or maybe it’s just a self-defense mechanism, we created some things. Nobody wants to think of mom and dad dying, rotting in some grave. We want there to be heavens and angels and harps. The idea that there’s stuff, spirit, my favorite, lives on. It’s not – it’s understandable. I remember as a kid looking – my parents were very good about explaining death to me, they said don’t – you know, this is what happens, and an uncle died, it seemed kind of odd to me. He had glasses on him, and I asked my mother, I said why does Uncle Joe have glasses. She goes because that’s what they remembered him as that. But he’s dead. Yes, but Uncle Joe always wore glasses. I said not when he went to bed. Uncle Joe also breathed. He’s dead. Don’t you know that the fact that his name is on the door outside and miraculously they all showed up – and it was the first introduction of seeing how – we put a suit on him, for God’s sakes, you know, and we say he looks so good. No he doesn’t. He’s dead.

So we, through our insecurity, our fear, we want there to be something more. We historically create, concoct these wonderful stories. Let’s face it, it’s better to think that than what I think, which is that I’m open for dispute if there is – God up there with a harp, and all my relatives. I’m all for it. I’ll be pleasantly surprised, but something tells me this is the Disneyfication of reality.

LAMB: Throughout your book you have Lionel Law, colon, and then you have a special comment or two on the – what you call your law, ”There exist an inverse proportionality between the size of one’s lapel flag pen and his intelligence.”

LIONEL: Absolutely.

LAMB: What do you mean?

LIONEL: We have – in fact, there’s some wonderful theses that have been posited by people to show that we are right now actually in a form of a fascistic nationalistic society, not fascism like Mussolini, but nationalism, post 9/11. We love symbols. We just iconic, the semiotics, the patriotism, and we had as a debate, as a question, why does Barack Obama have a flag lapel pin? So – and I noticed that after 9/11, especially being here in New York, there were enormous – I mean there were – you were – I mean people couldn’t drive because their 9/11, their flag is in their way, and then there were ribbons, and I can – I was convinced that, you know, they say we fought for that flag.

And here’s a great topic. I advocated that there should be no law which penalizing you criminally for burning said flag. Why you want to do that is beyond me, but you should have a law against burning the Constitution. That’s really the law. Well, we – this became a fetish of ours, and people – Sean Hannity, bless his heart – by the way, that’s a southern affectation, which means, you know, as long as you append a statement with bless his heart, you can get away with murder. But he said (INAUDIBLE) amber waves of grain, from sea to shining sea, deliver us from evil – and we’re missing the whole point. Again, symbolism, we love it. We love saints and crosses, and we will just – and I found out that the people who really were overtly were the greatest patriots, don’t you love your country? I used to get that – tend to have the least rudimentary fundamental understanding of what the history of this country is and what the classic separation of church and state. First Amendment, Bill of Rights, not a clue. But that flag’s up there.

LAMB: In your book, you mention a son. I don’t see any reference to a wife.

LIONEL: No.

LAMB: Not married?

LIONEL: Not married.

LAMB: Son.

LIONEL: Son.

LAMB: How old?

LIONEL: Fourteen years old.

LAMB: Where does he live?

LIONEL: He lives in the California area.

LAMB: Is he like you? Does he have a sister that he’s put to the Hoover vacuum?

LIONEL: No, he does not. No, he does not. I think he has a sense of humor like me. I think there’s something to be said for that, and when I mean sense of humor, it doesn’t mean funny per se. It means somebody who can see that something is funny and recognizes the absurdity of something, which I think he has, which I hope he has, because what I do is I would like to be the editorial cartoon, and not the editorial. I like to see what’s wrong with something, and I think it involves a higher order of understanding, and I think he’s got that.

LAMB: Air America. Is it going to make it?

LIONEL: I believe so, yes.

LAMB: But I mean, you know, we’ve watched the process of bankruptcy and selling and reselling and all of that.

LIONEL: Well, I’ll tell you what – I’ll tell you what I see now or what I – and this is not just wishful thinking. Is the latest incarnation of it, there seems – not seems, there are people who understand the business of radio and who understand that there is more – this is not an ideology. It has to be treated like a radio network, a radio company that has affiliates, and before you get to any ideology or what have you, you have to have that structure.

LAMB: How many towns are you in, by the way?

LIONEL: Me?

LAMB: Yes. I have no idea.

LIONEL: I honestly don’t know. I don’t know.

LAMB: More than 30, less than 30? I mean do you have …

LIONEL: At this point, maybe less than 30. But it’s hard, again, because we have – right now, there’s Air America media, which is going to – its platform is going to be not just terrestrial radio stations, but the Web site itself and podcasting and that sort of thing because in – I don’t know, whatever period of time coming up, the notion of classic radio as we say is always going to be here, but it’s going to be in different forms. But going back to your question, what happened initially was there was, I think, some very, very sincere people who wanted to come up with an idea that countered what they perceived to be conservative talk radio.

LAMB: So their initial effort was political.

LIONEL: Right. Well, political or to come up with a counter answer, whether that’s your strategy, whether that’s – Fox News, when it came up with its idea, was a political idea as well, but you have to have a theme to it. The NASCAR channel has a theme, and what happened was I think the initial incarnation of this – of this company did not have the radio backing, the background that it does now. We’ve got some very serious people, as I mentioned, Charlie Kireker, Betit Zeer (ph) and Bill Hess, Scott Elberg, a lot of people who know how radios work, and before we – what I see very favorable now is before the message gets out, they have to understand radio. Like I said, Paul Newman never sold – gave a kid a dollar until he figured out the rudiments of salad making, so these are our – dare I say our salad days, perhaps.

LAMB: In this book you do, I’m just going to go through a bunch of them very quickly. We don’t have a whole lot of time, but ”I couldn’t care less.” ”I couldn’t care less.” You particularly are upset about the word irregardless. Why?

LIONEL: Oh, well, you know, technically speaking, it is a word. It is OK. It is not preferred. I love that, not preferred. What drives me crazy is when people say ’I could care less’. I have become a stickler – not a stickler, but a worry-wart, perhaps, of how we are losing our mother tongue, and if you want to see something right now, just go to any blog. Just go and read what people write. We are losing the ability to write. The like has so infected, I say people from 35 and younger, has so affected our vocabulary that people will start off a question with ’like’. That’s like starting off a speech with ’however’. And the texting. I mean I’m all for Blackberries and all that stuff, but I was under the illusion, or delusion, perhaps, that when we get into e-mails our words would be who we are, our – but not anymore. We’re texting and we’re bifurcating and we’re minimalizing in ’how r u’.

LAMB: Hate crime.

LIONEL: Hate crime is the most unconstitutional concept that people applaud without thinking about it. Hate crime is the aggrandizing or the aggravation of a crime that is already cognizable at law merely because you have expressed an idea in conjunction with that which is already against the law. So if you have two people, both of them are charged with hitting somebody. This person hit somebody because he was mad. This person hit his victim because the victim was Jewish. We say, ah-hah, right off the bat, this is a felony, and this is a misdemeanor because you dare to evince a thought and motivation, a desire that we don’t like. If you want to get people, take them in sentencing and treat them accordingly.

LAMB: At this point in the program, people, I think, would be surprised to learn you’re a stutterer.

LIONEL: Yes.

LAMB: When did it start?

LIONEL: It started I don’t know when, but it was a childhood, and I had one nun who pulled me and a friend of mine out of school and said we think you’re retarded, and I said I don’t think I’m retarded, but it was a – it was a really tough thing, and what I did was I tried to, as Nietzsche said, you know, what does not destroy me, I figured, well, I’m going to show them. I went into talk radio and tried a lot. But I had to rework how I speak and how I think, and you’d be surprised the stutterers that are in Hollywood, and I heard John Wayne was. There was a rhythmic. There are little tricks you can use, and what’s worse about mine is every stutterer has a trick word, has a trigger word. Mine is L. So my name, Michael, ends in an L. Lebron starts in an L. I was doomed.

LAMB: And you add to it Lionel.

LIONEL: Yes, and I never thought about it until now.

LAMB: Starts and ends.

LIONEL: Yes, well, some people never learn, and there was this fifth grade when we would – the nun would say everybody stand up and say, you know, your name, and I remember, oh, my God, that could – I could hear my heart, you know, beating, and thinking, oh God, what do I do. So I got up and I thought to myself, you know, James Bond and Bond, James Bond. So I came up with some way of saying it and realize that you could, you know, kind of get around it.

Oh, by the way, if ever you run into a stutterer, please do not complete their sentence. They know this. Don’t bring it up …

LIONEL: Before we close, I haven’t heard any stuttering at all. Have you stuttered during this last hour?

LIONEL: Oh, yes, a couple of times. I slow down. And I can also feel it. It’s almost like an aura. It’s almost analogous to epilepsy, you know, a migraine. There are days when I wake up and I – oh, I feel it, so I’m going to be very careful, and if you – if you adjust your cadence, if you sing it, if you use a different accent, if you become more rhythmic, if you put little words between words that only you can hear, you can get around it.

LIONEL: Prediction: who will win the presidential election, and who do you want? You kind of – you said it earlier, but who do you – and you felt strongly about pro-Obama.

LIONEL: Yes, I think that he’s – I’ll tell you, I’m very, very frightened about this. There are two things – and by the way, if the – if the election were held today, when we’re taping this, I think the electoral map shows that Obama would have it. But we’ve had no – we’ve got no debate, either with Palin or with Obama. Here’s what scares me – what concerns me. Number one, I think there is a silent faction of people in this country who answer poll questions like they do a civics test. I think there is a racist element out there, whose ugly head I hope we don’t see, but I’m very frightened about what I hear people say, people who believe he’s a Muslim, people who might want to go for the status quo, something they’re used to. I don’t know. This is a – this is a referendum on our country. This is a Rorschach test on us. If Barack Obama loses, it’s about us.

LAMB: If people want to listen to you, what’s the Web site?

LIONEL: You can go to Airamerica.com or Lionelonline.com.

LAMB: The book is called ”Everyone’s Crazy Except You and Me, and I’m Not So Sure About You.” Lionel, thank you very much.

LIONEL: Thank you, sir.